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Messages in topic: Rift Soul Tree Calculator infos are wrong :)
Eleazar
Registered User

Nbr post: 3
Register: 8/8/13
Posted: 8/8/13 8:13 PM

Hi!

Just tested the site's Soul Tree Calculator and compared my 56 lvl cleric with the calculator - 56 Inquisitor, 16 Sentinel. The infos on the tooltips are outrageously incorrect, but you must already know this. Just reporting an observation like a good newb citizen =)

The Sentinel tree with 16 points for example gives too high healing values for Healing Invocation. Calculator says 2302-2544 and character's actual is 2010-2222 so I have a weaker heal even with all the gear and buffs on. A screenshot (link at the bottom) of this.

Other values seem to be radically incorrect as well, like Bolt of Light for which calculator gives 1650-1824 damage even though the actual damage is 2804-3099, but I didn't check and compare Bolt of Light or other abilities without gear and buffs etc.

Also the "Requires Level..." infos in the calculator's tooltips are quite random. And the Mana Requirements seemed to be off as well when I did a quick comparison. Healing Invocation mana req is around 5% and not 12.5% or at least it's like that with the gear and buffs.

It seems that there is lots lots of work left with the calculator, but hopefully the xpert nerd with the fixing skillz has lots of fun with the fixing =)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm287/MrBalthar/SoulTreeBug.jpg
Jelan
Admin

Nbr post: 10801
Register: 5/4/01
Posted: 8/9/13 12:12 AM

Hi Eleazar and welcome to Magelo !

The thing is, since Storm Legion, all the spell damage and healing values are now contextualized with your character so it's impossible to compare values outside of a character with any ingame values.

The values are only useful when compared to other abilities from the website which are also out of context/character.

The requires level should be correct and if you see an error somewhere, just let us know with an example and we will look into it. A quick glimpse at them didn't reveal anything.

The mana requirement is in % of your base mana, not your total mana. Again you cant compare with ingame value.
Eleazar
Registered User

Nbr post: 3
Register: 8/8/13
Posted: 8/13/13 2:18 AM

Okay then

Thanks for the welcome! Well I thought there was something fishy going on with the values but guess it's just the game then Thanks for the reply and the explanation.

What I meant with the random "Requires Level X", is that the calculator tooltip for Vex for example shows "Requires Level 54",( http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#m/nGal5kGGEmN0/pk5r0) which I guess would be true at 54 points for the Vex for those damage values, but not true for the Vex as an ability, because you get the ability at level 1. Maybe there could be two values? And maybe the skill tooltips should be only about "Required Points" and the top bar could show the "Required Level"? The two values in a tooltip could be the minimum amount of soul points required (or the minimum level required) to obtain the ability and the points (level) required for shown stats? Okay, it's pretty evident how many soul points (levels) are required to obtain an ability if you check the red number in the ability icon before you fill a tree, but once you've loaded the tree with points you can no longer see the needed amount of soul points to obtain a lower level ability, unless you take the points away from the tree to check the number under the icon.

Also playing around with Vex and "Requires Level X":


In addition the damage values for Vex won't update for every point spent in Inquisitor from points 53 to 57 at least. Shouldn't there be the 1% damage increase for every point spent as the Inquisitor Soul Bonus is "Each point in Inquisitor: Increases Damage done by 1%"?

One more thing, 56 Points Spent in the Inquisitor is "Required Level 55" in the top bar of the calculator. Shouldn't it be 56? The level required in the top bar after level 50 seems to be Points Spent minus 1.
http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#m/nGal5kGGEmN0/p

I understand that the contextualizing means something and the calc values and the ingame values aren't comparable with each other. But still I'm confused, as I have so much lower ingame healing values with everything on than in the calculator. Stripping gear and buffs and possible planar attunement effects would only make the difference greater. "The Healing Invocation" value ingame naked and stripped with only Prismatic Glory on is 666-736, and calculator states that it is 2302-2544. The calculator ( http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#m/nGal5kGGEmN0/pk5r0) gives the ability more than 3 times higher values than what my nekkid poor cleric has ingame

Okay I have to ask What does "contextualized" mean other than racial resistance bonuses, planar attunement effects, buffs and gear? Are there some random factors or other effects which make general/common base values incomparable? I mean if I strip my gear and buffs and check the values which aren't affected by planar attunement or racials, shouldn't I get level dependent base values, which are similar for every build like mine?

Basically if I make two clerics, level 56 with the same soul builds, they will have same base values in abilities in the game, no? I don't really know, but If this is true, then theoretically it would be possible to make a calculator, which would calculate comparable values, when planar attunement is not included? If I've understood it correctly, one soul gets possible sync bonuses from the two other souls and those bonuses would have to be included... which of course could be laborious, as there are 56 different combinations of three souls one class can have =) Even though many souls don't affect each other at all according to the ingame soul bonus descriptions. I might be wrong with all this though, but being wrong is always an educating experience

These are just some random thoughts and observations. I'm a newb so I still have lot to learn of the game and mechanics

EDIT: Spell check and fix version 0.1
Jelan
Admin

Nbr post: 10801
Register: 5/4/01
Posted: 8/13/13 4:13 AM

What I meant with the random "Requires Level X", is that the calculator tooltip for Vex for example shows "Requires Level 54",( http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#m/nGal5kGGEmN0/pk5r0) which I guess would be true at 54 points for the Vex for those damage values, but not true for the Vex as an ability, because you get the ability at level 1. Maybe there could be two values? And maybe the skill tooltips should be only about "Required Points" and the top bar could show the "Required Level"? The two values in a tooltip could be the minimum amount of soul points required (or the minimum level required) to obtain the ability and the points (level) required for shown stats? Okay, it's pretty evident how many soul points (levels) are required to obtain an ability if you check the red number in the ability icon before you fill a tree, but once you've loaded the tree with points you can no longer see the needed amount of soul points to obtain a lower level ability, unless you take the points away from the tree to check the number under the icon.


It's definitely an idea but at the same time I feel it's not really needed mainly because the context of those displayed abilities is the soultree calculator where the expected character level is clearly displayed as well as how many points you have spent in each tree. So if an ability is granted for a character lvl 56, well all good, that's how many points you have decided to spend in a given tree. If the ability is not unlocked, then you will see how many points you need to spend in that tree to get it.

Also, while the rank for the abilities granted is contextualized for your character required level, the tooltip displayed on the same ability in the tree is not (always rank 1), so it will always show you at which level you can gain access to the ability line.

Also playing around with Vex and "Requires Level X":


This is perfectly normal, see the ranks of Vex and at which character level you get them. The number of points does not really matter (well directly that is), only the character level matters:
> Vex

In addition the damage values for Vex won't update for every point spent in Inquisitor from points 53 to 57 at least. Shouldn't there be the 1% damage increase for every point spent as the Inquisitor Soul Bonus is "Each point in Inquisitor: Increases Damage done by 1%"?


As i said, we dont do any contextualization of healing/dmg values. See below for a little more explanation.

One more thing, 56 Points Spent in the Inquisitor is "Required Level 55" in the top bar of the calculator. Shouldn't it be 56? The level required in the top bar after level 50 seems to be Points Spent minus 1.


This is how it works ingame... from lvl 1 to 50 you gain 1 pt per level and an extra point each 3 level, after lvl 50, it is linear at 1pt per level.

I understand that the contextualizing means something and the calc values and the ingame values aren't comparable with each other. But still I'm confused, as I have so much lower ingame healing values with everything on than in the calculator. Stripping gear and buffs and possible planar attunement effects would only make the difference greater. "The Healing Invocation" value ingame naked and stripped with only Prismatic Glory on is 666-736, and calculator states that it is 2302-2544. The calculator ( http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#m/nGal5kGGEmN0/pk5r0) gives the ability more than 3 times higher values than what my nekkid poor cleric has ingame


I am glad to see you are the first to being troubled by this and actually raising questions.. So what's the deal and why this is happening. There are 2 ways to display ability description which includes the healing/dmg values we are talking about:
  • First, the easy way, use the description that Trion is providing in its soul xml files. This is how everyone else to my knowledge is doing it.
  • Second the hard way, compute the description yourself ,meaning having an engine capable of rendering those description by calculating all those values. This is how we do it mostly.

Why mostly ? Like I said, before Storm Legion, we were ending with pretty much the same values as the Trion provided ones. After SL, we could had stayed with our values which would indicate base value but any other calculator out there, would have much higher values and people would not understand why there is such a gap between our values and all the other ones.

So now if Trion have published up to date souls informaiton, we grab the values and use those instead of our calculated ones.

So the right question to ask is how exactly Trion are exporting those values given that they are scaled by your character level and stats. So they must have picked a lvl (guessing 60) and some average stats but they never disclosed which values they chose...

It's even more troublesome now that each soul grants bonuses depending on how much points you spent on them. My guess is that they don't take that into account.

I will try to find out as I have been curious about that myself for quite sometime and it would be nice to disclose on what grounds those values are computed.

Okay I have to ask What does "contextualized" mean other than racial resistance bonuses, planar attunement effects, buffs and gear? Are there some random factors or other effects which make general/common base values incomparable? I mean if I strip my gear and buffs and check the values which aren't affected by planar attunement or racials, shouldn't I get level dependent base values, which are similar for every build like mine?


You pretty much covered it, I am pretty sure the scaling is affected by your stats so anything that boost your stats will boost the values. Additionally like you said, some abilities are impacted by passive ones and by how many points you have spent in each of your trees depending on each soul bonuses.

Basically if I make two clerics, level 56 with the same soul builds, they will have same base values in abilities in the game, no?


Yes, given 2 naked 56 cleric with no buff whatsoever with the same soul build will yield the exact same ability values.
Eleazar
Registered User

Nbr post: 3
Register: 8/8/13
Posted: 8/13/13 1:49 PM

Alrighty, thanks for explaining all this

We have ability ranks? Dangit, I knew there were things hiding from me. I mean of course there are ranks and all the tooltips say "Rank something" and I see it now and already feel much wiser. Ranks have totally eluded me somehow this far.

About the point cap in a singular soul tree:

This is how it works ingame... from lvl 1 to 50 you gain 1 pt per level and an extra point each 3 level, after lvl 50, it is linear at 1pt per level.


It changes at level 50 then it seems. Before 50 the soul point cap is your level and at 50 and after the cap is level +1. So 50 level char can have 51 points in a tree. Okay got it.

Right. I'll have to digest all this info and see if I get any wiser eventually. I wouldn't count on that though. I would probably have to familiarize myself with the soul.xmls and understand more of the scalings and formulas before feeling any wiser but I have exams to do now and no time for extra research

Anyhoo, good luck with any research you might end up doing! I hope that there is someone in the Trion crew who knows how their gimmicks really work. I mean it is possible that they just put stuff together and accidentally got it to work adequately and when you ask something clever about it the only answer will be a shrug with a grin: "Noo idea, you tell me?". That would be pure Lean system architecture right there with good Agile customer collaboration. Maybe they have an infinite improbability engine doing all the calculations for them.

Okay I'll leave you in peace for now.

Cheers